Sun 16 Sep 2007
This week on the show:
- First Paul Hogan, then Russell Crowe, now bees - yet another reason why the US should close its borders to Australian imports.
- Israeli Nazis.
- Marital advice for listener Vibeeen.
- and a brand new segment.
I know we said we’d be back next week at the end of the show, but that was because we’d forgotten that we’ll be away next weekend. We’ll be back in two weeks.
September 16th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
“Honey, there’s something I’d like you to do in bed. But first, I think you already know your sister here…”
Maybe their could be background nudity in BYU?
I think The Sopranos finale was inspired by tvindy’s abrupt voicemail endings.
Our bees are dying off because of the terrorists Australian bees! Prepare to be attacked! Get ready for the ’shock and awe!’ Now where is Australia located again?
I wonder what vegans do when they’ve been stung by a bee, who will soon die for his defensive strike?
Bees who don’t eat meat = beegans, obviously.
New segment! I always pity the child porn investigators for the reason you mention.
I guess what can make porn good or bad in an ethical sense is the level of choice by the participant(s). Do they want to be there? Did they choose to be there?
In child porn we of course assume, in a legal sense, that anyone under 18 isn’t capable of thinking with a fully functioning brain and thus not capable of rationally deciding to participate in sexual/pornographic acts. So the crime is forcing, luring a child into sexual acts etc…. i.e. making the choice for the child.
D’oh. Jana’s saying everything I said now! Quiet Jana!
I’ll see your possum in the yard and give you all the seagulls that just landed in mine.
I always find the definitions of exploitation and objectification somewhat hazy. Many extremists like their black and white definitions of course (e.g. some feminists). But again, they are both things that someone can participate in willingly, in and outside the bedroom.
I think it’s natural to objectify each other. We’re wired to do it. You have to use your brain and know when a person wants to be identified sexually in place of or intermingled with who they are as a person of intellect and value.
Consciously or subconsciously, I am always judging women in terms of sexuality. My brain is thinking “Do I want to have sex with this woman or not?” Even if you’re looking at someone old and unatrractive, I figure my brain, somewhere in the background, is making a decision “I don’t want to have sex with this person.”
I try, to the best of my ability, to make decisions about a woman or interact with them without regard to my willingness to have sex with them. Just as I want to be judged or chosen without regard to my sexual attractiveness (which I’m sure you can tell, is incredible and dangerous!), I will assume it is the same for most women unless there are obvious signs that they are using their attractiveness for gain. There are of course women who rely on being objectified to achieve business-wise or just to get a free lunch.
As far as judging the right or wrong nature of pornography, it really seems incredibly relative to the viewer’s ethics and morals. I think it’s impossible to render an objective judgment of prostitution, porn etc. You’ve just got to decide for yourself.
When people make a pronouncement, it’s often tough to get them to understand that their decision shouldn’t necessarily stand for others. Prostitution is immoral… to you.
Moral conundrums? Hmmm… lemme think. There’s always Heinz’s dilemma. How bout this? You have the chance to either save the life of one person in your immediate family OR two random strangers. You can’t do both. Is either decision the better one? Would it be acceptable to think “family first?”
For future discussion, there are differences in the way ethical decisions are often made by gender. Men often are willing to enforce rules strictly while women often seek to change the rules to maintain inclusion.
Thanks for the show. Hope I don’t eat up too much space when I hit Submit Comment.
September 17th, 2007 at 11:34 am
Love the new segment, Z&J! I liked the interplay between you when you weighed the many ideas. I feel like Tvindy right now, and I want to leave three 5-minute voicemails on this segment alone! I’ve also spent a lot of my life ruminating over these sorts of issues, and I wish I’d been there with you, since I kept interrupting the podcast with my own thoughts.
Here’s my deepest one: So much of morality is viewed through the subjective, invisible lens of time. For example, it was long accepted in ancient Greek culture that men typically had a sexual relationship with a young boy as part of being that boy’s mentor. They believed they were preparing the boy for life in all ways, including sexual. Women were for procreation in that culture. Today we find that repulsive, but that was the collective reality at the time. Can we say with moral certainty we are right? How will future generations judge us?
I invented a term for this about 15 years ago, “chronocentrism.” Like ethnocentrism or other -centric types of thought, it is typified by the lack of awareness of how one’s own existence affects one’s outlook; in this case, it is the time in which one lives. Interestingly, with the advent of Google, I’ve learned others have laid claim to the term more recently than I. However, many use it in a different way, saying that a chronocentric wrongly and somewhat consciously believes their time is superior. I maintain it is unconscious, and I believe only God could know which time, if any, is morally superior.
I’d like to hear your thoughts on whether lying is right or wrong, and if so, when. To your partner, your boss, your child or parent, friends, neighbors, strangers, etc… There’s a school of psychology that maintains lying to ourselves is a vital tool for survival and mental health. There’s a conundrum. You could start with “what is a lie?” Is it lying to omit telling the truth? When is it good or bad to omit a painful truth?
@ Kevbo: Family first, unless that family member is evil, saintly, or nearing death, especially if one of the strangers is a child. How can I judge? one might ask. I’m forced to in any case, so second-guessing is pointless. It’d be instantaneous. I personally wouldn’t regret it–nature programs all species to protect their genetic line, in weird and even cruel ways. Some walrus species have balls so big that they can produce gallons of ejaculate, to literally flush their sex partner’s reproductive system of a rival’s recently-deposited semen. Thank you, Mr. Darwin! Males of many cat species, even domesticated cats, will kill unprotected young that aren’t their own, presumably so that they may mate with the female and continue their own line. Again, Evolution Has Spoken. If I could save everyone at the cost of my own life, I’d probably do that instinctively. Altruism is not a desirable quality as far as evolution is concerned, or so it seems. When I was single, being a nice guy never got me laid!!!
@ Jana & Zan, thanks for the marital advice. You’re right, there are unanswered questions about the situation which make it difficult to answer, but you guessed correctly when you did guess! There’s more, and perhaps it’s time for my first voicemail. We’ll see. However, I did lose a little wind in my sails when you both suggested couples porn, but then agreed later that it’s basically immoral! Talk about mixed messages!
Have a great weekend away. I’m looking forward to a show in two weeks.
Best,
Vibeeen
September 17th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
So, the real question is, is walrus porn immoral? Can a walrus consent to being recorded on video? I bet Uncle Bob knows.
September 21st, 2007 at 2:13 pm
In a “chronocentric” world God must be morally ambiguous.
September 21st, 2007 at 9:59 pm
In what way? I’d like to understand what you mean, Cornel.
September 22nd, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Hi Vibeeen,
I don’t believe in god, but if one did, would not that god be smoating us down left and right? Where’s that god that sent the plagues to the Egyptians who would not “let his people go”? Wouldn’t the British, Americans, and everyone else (I guess most of our ancesters) not be deserving of a good smoating for 200 (plus) years of slavery. Or would Africans not be god’s kids?
Why would that god rain hellfire and brimstone down on the sodomites, yet leave Las Vegas as a gleaming beacon in the desert? Or for that matter why isn’t Canada a steaming hole just north of Seattle? Afterall, we eat pork and lobster and legalized gay marriage.
I guess in the end, I’m saying god is either ambiguous to our transgressions, is an absentee landlord, or well, doesn’t exist. The reasoning for this statement would be his inconsistency in meting out his punishments. The actions of humans in one time period do not carry the same weight or consequence of the same actions in another epoch.
Not offence on the God thing, I’m the atheist.
September 25th, 2007 at 11:02 am
It sounds like the new segment has stirred some interest. We’ll have to do it again some time.
September 30th, 2007 at 6:32 am
I also enjoyed the new segment, it was very thought provoking. With the dark discussion of child pornography to the exploitation of women in general, what a coincidence that we hear news about 13 year old Maddison Gabriel chosen as the face of the Gold Coast Fashion Week. And in other recent news, Alicia Silverstone (who was filmed in “The Crush” at age 15) appears nude in a PETA ad.
Who do you think is more sexually exploited? A teenage actress in a movie dealing with sexual tension between an adult and a minor, or a teenage model strutting scantily clad down a catwalk?
Alicia Silverstone is a Vegan.
Tvindy, take a break from moving and say hello.
October 12th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Hi Zan&Jana
Vegan listener reports herself! Well, I’m not that strict about it, for instance when I’m invited to dinner at my friend’s I don’t really ask them to cook me a vegan meal, that seems so demanding. But it’s not like I hide being a vegan! I never heard about vegans hiding their diet from anyone.. where did you hear that?
The discussion about the ethics of pornography was really interesting. With these discussions you probably make people think about the thing, which is always good.
Keep it up guys! Love to you and the little muffintot.
ps: pardon my English, I’m Dutch;)